[SPAZZ] Why the scandal shouldn't matter, true or not!

[GrimRonin]

As a disclaimer, let me say I don't feel the "evidence" piled up is conclusive enough to be damning, nor do I feel the apology letter was an admission of guilt so much as catering to a rabid fanbase. Honestly, I refuse to decide anything for certain. True or not true is not my business.

Let me say what I know is true: everyone has tolerance levels. Push hard enough or long enough and ANYONE can snap. As a soldier, I can tell you Basic Training is very well designed to push past your limits and your mood matters to no one. Lack of sleep, lack of friendly faces, constantly being screamed at and forced to struggle past exhaustion while being held to a high standard of performance took it's toll on me. I said and did things I regret. I was at times cruel, at times completely heartless and I'm truly sorry to those I hurt. I think to survive and flourish in Korean celebrity, the girls have had to constantly make appearances, sing, dance, smile and joke. Harsh diets, strict schedules, mandatory hours of personal hygiene, very little sleep and isolation from friends and family have surely made them suffer just as much as I did. I only struggled for three months, they've been at this for years!

Here's my point: If bullying did happen, I think it's completely understandable, given the circumstances. Even if it didn't, I'm sure the stress made all of them say and do things they regret, still completely understandable. I fault them for nothing, I refuse to belive with all the charity work they've done that they just this once slipped up and showed their "true ugly selves". No. I forgive them, and hope they are given what they truly need to get past this: time to themselves, to rest and maybe even pursue a little happiness. How can we, as their fans and moreso as human beings demand so much of so few? As their fans, lets try harder to return some of the joy they've given us! And not forget they are only human too.

[SimonH]

I guess you can say I agree with you. I don't understand why most of the Korean netizens believe there is bullying. It is no secret that Korean celebrities communicate with their fellow group mates and friends in the field through Kakao chatroom, and if there is bullying going on in any kpop groups out there, it will be kept well-hidden in those chatrooms, not displayed publicly on a social media site. I honestly think they were just expressing their discontent after all the stress and practice CCM has put them through.

This would actually strengthen and fortify bond between friends if it were to happen to anyone else. For example, you won't want your friend to behave hypocritically by saying that he finds it cool with how you behave when, in actual fact, he thinks you're an asshole. As time passess, friends will give and take to maintain a healthy relationship. Unfortunately, they are celebrities so every move of theirs will be scutinized by the public.

[Scatter_88mil]

Can't say much about what army life is like (though I'll be well on way to experiencing it myself next year when I enlist by then) but I think a central difference between K-idols and military is that the latter at least gets fed properly to a degree (this is what my dad always said when he was in the ROKA - regardless of how difficult the training, they always got fed decently to keep themselves energized) and don't have some megalomaniac leader who seems to think he's king of the world or something. Can't really imagine many generals being like that, unless they happen to be very, very far up the chain of command or just developed some overbloated sense of themselves.

I myself also forgive them (well, mostly anyway) due to the harsh work environment they've been put in, which can be seen as a Kpop idol version of Battle Royale. Antis come and go while public sentiment can change as time passes on but the most detrimental problem I see with T-ara is CCM/KKS in both the short and long term, who has absolutely no idea what sort of crap he's putting them through (and if he does, he's shown that he doesn't care at all so long as he gets to fill his pockets and bank account).

The problem with the K-market is longetivity. Agencies somehow seem to think that churning out comebacks several times a year is the only way to keep themselves relevant which comes at a heavy physical and mental cost to the celebrities themselves. Up to date, T-ara's released only one full album and everything else has been singles or minis, with CCM apparently promising DBD was supposed to be a second full album but in the end, it became a mini because it thought promoting in Japan at the time was better off.

http://seoulbeats.com/2012/10/over-promoting-a-tell-tale-sign-of-desperation/ This is worth reading to know about T-ara's little case of that.

I hope they are given what they truly need to get past this: time to themselves, to rest and maybe even pursue a little happiness. How can we, as their fans and moreso as human beings demand so much of so few? As their fans, lets try harder to return some of the joy they've given us! And not forget they are only human too.

Amen to this.

What they really need is time to themselves aka vacation and a decent break.

Personally, I think what the fandom should really get most straight out of is patience - even during the scandal itself, there were definitely fans that seemed more concerned with when Sexy Love was going to come out rather than caring about the members' hardships at the time, or at least placed the former higher up in the priority list over the latter.

So long as demand is in a noticeable scale, CCM would make no hesitation to push T-ara's schedules even harder to make money out of it (and with Davichi having recently left CCM, I honestly can't imagine how much harder it will be for T-ara, since they are literally now the only form of revenue left). And it's not like T-ara earns a fair share from group activities either.

I guess you can say I agree with you. I don't understand why most of the Korean netizens believe there is bullying. It is no secret that Korean celebrities communicate with their fellow group mates and friends in the field through Kakao chatroom, and if there is bullying going on in any kpop groups out there, it will be kept well-hidden in those chatrooms, not displayed publicly on a social media site. I honestly think they were just expressing their discontent after all the stress and practice CCM has put them through.

This would actually strengthen and fortify bond between friends if it were to happen to anyone else. For example, you won't want your friend to behave hypocritically by saying that he finds it cool with how you behave when, in actual fact, he thinks you're an asshole. As time passess, friends will give and take to maintain a healthy relationship. Unfortunately, they are celebrities so every move of theirs will be scutinized by the public.

Partly why K-netizens believe there is bullying (or at least are inclined to believe there was some form of it) is due to that Korea itself had serious cases of bullying at schools reported by the media - bullying that led to fatal results was mostly eyed by the public to occur during high schools since HS is seen as the most pressuring but considering this year's cases reported occurred in middle schools, it raised quite a bit of spark. From all that, the last thing any K-netizen would want to hear is bullying happening in an idol group, especially one that rocked up in popularity at the time - and the fact Hwayoung got the boot, KKS making contradictary statements left and right while also shoving all the blame on her simply made the public antagonize T-ara even more. To put it bluntly, T-ara became scapegoats and collateral damage to both CCM, netizens and antis.

I would though somewhat disgree they were just expressing discontent after all the stress and crap CCM made them go through - they've been in that situation for 3 long years, plus they've already made some statements in variety shows that they're not being well fed or given enough rest. But ever since Soyeon, Boram and Hyomin's protest in regards to that back at February, they've remained pretty darn silent over CCM's mistreatment of them and it's a no-brainer they've probably been threatened (as well as KKS publicly announcing that he'll replace them over a whim whenever he feels like it - Hwayoung being victim no.1)

Had it been expressing solely discontent due to stress and hardship, surely they would have said it in a more brash/irrational manner, rather than in a subtle form.

[GrimRonin]

Maybe what would be best is for another label to buy them out? Or they could terminate their contracts and reform under a new name. Mollayo. Whatever happens I will follow and support all the girls in whatever they do.

[Scatter_88mil]

Maybe what would be best is for another label to buy them out? Or they could terminate their contracts and reform under a new name. Mollayo. Whatever happens I will follow and support all the girls in whatever they do.

Not sure what their contracts are like in detail so I wouldn't know. Other labels probably aren't likely to buy them out at this stage due to K-public sentiment still being quite negative (which also means whatever label takes them in will be at serious risk of losing money, even bigger companies like Cube, SM, JYP and YG aren't likely to buy them out - not to mention T-ara's main source of income is Korea and won't be able to rely on overseas activites alone by a long shot).

What I do know is that some of the members' contracts are supposedly expiring at some point next year and likely aren't going to renew them for obvious reasons, which partially explains the controversial new member additions that occurred a few months ago. Career-wise, only Hyomin and Jiyeon seem to benefit from being in CCM while Eunjung's been going in a steady decline, Soyeon only gets few activities and Boram and Qri get literally nothing. If anything, chances are it's either of the latter four that are seeing their contracts expire.

The question will be who will pick them up after they leave (and hopefully don't get blacklisted or mud-slinged by KKS for being 'traitors' or 'unethical'), and that's assuming the public as a whole has forgotten or forgiven them regarding the scandal by then.

[klee95]

Had it been expressing solely discontent due to stress and hardship, surely they would have said it in a more brash/irrational manner, rather than in a subtle form.

To be honest...it wasn't very subtle. Posting anything on a social networking site is pretty irrational; any entertainer in their right mind would, I think, know to avoid this.

But to the OP...I agree, very much. I don't think of it as "protecting the girls" or whatever to just brush this off and pretend like nothing happened - that's just being delusional. We should really consider the very real possibility of there having been bullying (I'm using the word in a very loose context here) or just...ill feelings in general. It's not like it's wrong to bend a little under pressure. I would go on and on about people blaming Hwayoung in what I view as a completely hypocritical manner, but basically -

Accept it, and move on.

[Scatter_88mil]

To be honest...it wasn't very subtle. Posting anything on a social networking site is pretty irrational; any entertainer in their right mind would, I think, know to avoid this.

But to the OP...I agree, very much. I don't think of it as "protecting the girls" or whatever to just brush this off and pretend like nothing happened - that's just being delusional. We should really consider the very real possibility of there having been bullying (I'm using the word in a very loose context here) or just...ill feelings in general. It's not like it's wrong to bend a little under pressure. I would go on and on about people blaming Hwayoung in what I view as a completely hypocritical manner, but basically -

Accept it, and move on.

By brash/irrational, I meant as in they would have said it in a more 'cussed out' way, backed up with swear words and other forms of nasty and direct insults (I'm sure everyone does this even on social networking sites when they dump out emotionally).

Since it didn't seem so like it, I felt that it was subtle in comparison to such, that's what I meant - which goes in line that there probably was some sort of serious conflict some time before the Twitter issue blew wide open (and all the more reason why I think there was some sort of serious rift between Hwayoung and 6-ara in general, possibly as early as mid 2010). I honestly think there's much more history to it. That one gif where Jiyeon deliberately avoided Hwayoung's double hi-5 while accepting the others at the bowling place definitely doesn't look anything but an act of deliberate isolation.

And definitely agree with you on the final bit - I'd even go as far to say the people blaming Hwayoung are simply insane and no different to being antis and delusional to a filthy level (and quite a few T-ara fans themselves have proven themselves just fine to be no different on Youtube, Allkpop and even here in the D-forums).

Reminds me, three particular Youtubers, going under the name ekachingu (or whatever it was, IDGAF), Obamaphiliac and SayakaAndo in particular, have shown quite disturbing comments regarding Hwayoung as well >__> The second even went as far to say Hwayoung tried to plot 'revenge' and undoubtedly, all three of them actually chew and swallow the garbage CCM vomits out and even denied T-ara being overworked and mistreated, or at least tried to justify it by throwing around pretty pathetic excuses It's sickening to see 'fans' like that roaming around. And meanwhile, KKS is now planning on debuting ANOTHER group, calling them the '2nd SeeYa' (which ironically, he destroyed himself)

Pardon my ranting. I just had to get this off my head XD

[Regius]

More than 1 month ago. But I would say noteworthy of discussion. Things got extremely out of hand, with KKS/CCM doing everything that could be expected from a rational person. And as everyone who follows that controversy, it didn't. Some would argue KKS is insane/incompetent, and some may say he is still the man as he made T-ara popular and still around.

In summary, KKS came out on top. He got T-ara and Hwayoung firmly in his (iron) grip, plus the fact that T-ara AND Hwayoung receiving majority of the flak. They did shot themselves in the foot by actions that are easily twisted or misinterpreted.

It's like condemning a first time (and minor) offenders with something akin to a death penalty, WHILE an infamous/notorious crime lord just getting the usual jabs of being evil. Life ain't fair.

T-ara lost in the short term, while Hwayoung lost in the long run. But its maddening/saddening how these young girls has been damaged/traumatized by something that should just have been left internal to them. Still can't shake the feeling off there were conspirators/instigators fanning the flames with an assortment of haters/bandwagoners joining the mudslinging.

And now, some thoughts in light of the recent events, particularly Davichi's departure from CCM:

1) It could be argued that T-ara would be the main/only money generator for CCM. They would be overworked, but unlikely sidelined or discarded. Unless, CCM finds another 'gem' and decides T-ara ain't worth the time and effort.

2) Even with contracts expiring next year, it might be so drastic as to remove/replace members (or even disband T-ara altogether). Main point is Hwayoung's termination. Admittedly, the whole scandal aggravated it, even IF it was justified (though I doubt it was). T-ara supporters won't sit well with CCM getting rid of another member or two. If supporters would be in an uproar, I'd hate to imagine what would haters would say (about those who remain in the group AND those to be let go).

Note of caution: its KKS we're talking about here. So the idea of keeping T-ara intact may be a wholly alien idea to him. The announcement of '9-ara' early in the year was welcome to me, as the idea of an 'expansion' is the lesser evil when compared to replacement/removal. I

PS: might be poorly constructed. I'll try to restructure it.

[Emperor Ryu]

True or not true is not my business.

Speculations can only go so far, unless those who know the truth take it with them to their graves.

Let me say what I know is true

Here's my point: If bullying did happen, I think it's completely understandable, given the circumstances. Even if it didn't, I'm sure the stress made all of them say and do things they regret, still completely understandable. I fault them for nothing, I refuse to belive with all the charity work they've done that they just this once slipped up and showed their "true ugly selves". No. I forgive them, and hope they are given what they truly need to get past this: time to themselves, to rest and maybe even pursue a little happiness. How can we, as their fans and moreso as human beings demand so much of so few? As their fans, lets try harder to return some of the joy they've given us! And not forget they are only human too.

According to Soyeon's interview, there was a disagreement amongst them, and wanted another party to help resolve the issue, which lead to an internal investigation that drew up 19 written statements by staff members, which unfortunately convinced Kim Kwang Soo to terminate Hwayoung's contract. But given the nature of the situation, he gave her no conditions that restricted her from rejoining them. This was the first indication that significantly brought around a more understanding and redeeming light into this misunderstood event in T-ara's history. If he did restrict Hwayoung from returning, it would've most likely indicate that she would've been the source for both being a bully "and" being bullied by the other members. Think of it like a business version of a civil restraining order issued by a judge, because both parties cannot get along. Since no such conditioning was issued to Hwayoung, it made it more less likely that any bullying ever took place, to begin with. Remember, most of the so-called "evidence" were edited gifs from various shows that T-ara had been on without any creditable sources to testify that those scenes doubled as actually bullying, and no lawsuits were filed against anyone in Core Contents Media. Yes, they are human beings, and as such, they are also capable of redeeming themselves as well. It is understood that being human reminds us of those qualities that limits us, and the qualities that show potential to become better.

Since no bullying happened, only a polarized disagreement that involved a recovering Hwayoung from a foot injury, placating the notion that bullying occur does not help the situation get any better at all, given the stance on bullying is not welcomed at all. Forgiving them as they forgave themselves and to everyone else is the step in the right direction, and hopefully soon, Hwayoung reuniting with T-ara will mark a historical achievement in K-Pop, as being the first idol group to overcome a misunderstood media blitz and a terminated contract by 19 staff members, and gain a greater redemption and brighter future for all of them.

I don't understand why most of the Korean netizens believe there is bullying.

Bullying became a growing issue in schools, work places, and online for quite some time, and at the same time antis continued to remind and fuel the internet with their discontent for them, the company and the C.E.O. for years. Add both of them together, and it synced into one huge media tragedy. The timing to bring bullying to a stop on a national level in that country hit a high point when more celebrities started addressing this issue, and filed reported cases started popping up more frequently, thanks to the media focus. If you ask me, it is quite possible for someone to be so entranced and focused on a specific issue so intensely, that even the slightest familiarity would ring an alarm bell, even to a situation that's not even related, nor involves that specific issue at all. I've already added this to the list of reasons why this came about, in the first place.

I honestly think they were just expressing their discontent after all the stress and practice CCM has put them through.

It is unfortunate that others did not interpret this as such.

which can be seen as a Kpop idol version of Battle Royale.

I think that's too extreme to describe it.

but the most detrimental problem I see with T-ara is CCM/KKS in both the short and long term, who has absolutely no idea what sort of crap he's putting them through (and if he does, he's shown that he doesn't care at all so long as he gets to fill his pockets and bank account).

I would really like a video recording with audio that captures this claim. I really do.

The problem with the K-market is longetivity. Agencies somehow seem to think that churning out comebacks several times a year is the only way to keep themselves relevant which comes at a heavy physical and mental cost to the celebrities themselves. Up to date, T-ara's released only one full album and everything else has been singles or minis, with CCM apparently promising DBD was supposed to be a second full album but in the end, it became a mini because it thought promoting in Japan at the time was better off.

I do not believe that is the case when looking at the industry itself as a whole, especially when there are many factors that results in the top echelon of the genre to make a fewer comebacks. It is understood that adding Areum and Dani would indeed help the T-ara members in their group responsibilities. The addition of Gangkiz was the company's hopes to have another idol group to help fill in the spots that T-ara wasn't able to fulfill before, even though Davichi tried their very best to do so with their collaborations with some of the T-ara members. As for promoting in Japan, we don't know the full details of Day By Day ending up as such, no different when they turned down a whole bunch of money from them to do some work covering for their trip to Europe. Unknown circumstances may have changed for what was originally planned. In the business world, this does happen.

Continue to the next post.

[Emperor Ryu]

From all that, the last thing any K-netizen would want to hear is bullying happening in an idol group, especially one that rocked up in popularity at the time - and the fact Hwayoung got the boot, KKS making contradictary statements left and right while also shoving all the blame on her simply made the public antagonize T-ara even more. To put it bluntly, T-ara became scapegoats and collateral damage to both CCM, netizens and antis.

It was more of a "misunderstanding" on their part to actually view those tweets as a form of bullying in the first place. Antis jumped at the chance by adding a whole bunch of unproven, ridiculous, fabricated allegations against T-ara, Core Contents Media, and Kim Kwang Soo. Again, let's be clear about the facts here, Hwayoung and Hyoyoung met with Kim Kwang Soo in person. They talked while being strongly dejected from the public, but yet they forgave each other, and reconciled. Those 19 written statements by staff members is what lead to Hwayoung's contract termination. But he didn't give her any conditions that prevented her from returning to them. He even publicly announced that he'll continue to support her and accept her back. I still haven't seen any burden of proof to go along with this scapegoating angle at all, considering that it's purely based on speculation, and not the facts.

I would though somewhat disgree they were just expressing discontent after all the stress and crap CCM made them go through - they've been in that situation for 3 long years, plus they've already made some statements in variety shows that they're not being well fed or given enough rest. But ever since Soyeon, Boram and Hyomin's protest in regards to that back at February, they've remained pretty darn silent over CCM's mistreatment of them and it's a no-brainer they've probably been threatened (as well as KKS publicly announcing that he'll replace them over a whim whenever he feels like it - Hwayoung being victim no.1)

And yet, on some of those shows we can clearly see them eating quite well from time to time. It's very, very well known that idols go through some tough and challenging diets to maintain their fitness, especially when it comes to modeling. I swear, focusing on one thing does not mean that one thing is everything. And again, if there's proof that there's any mistreatment of employees, get that police investigation going.

Had it been expressing solely discontent due to stress and hardship, surely they would have said it in a more brash/irrational manner, rather than in a subtle form.

A "misunderstanding" indeed.

Maybe what would be best is for another label to buy them out? Or they could terminate their contracts and reform under a new name. Mollayo. Whatever happens I will follow and support all the girls in whatever they do.

Best? Not even. It's one of the most difficult things to do as an entertainer, whether it's under good or bad conditions. All of the previous works would not be accessible for the artist(s) any more, because it's that company's property, not the artist's, unless there's a contract made between the artist(s) and the former company that allows the use of such works, then it would be possible, but highly unlikely, especially when it comes to monetary royalties. Say for instance T-ara leaves Core Contents Media and forms under a new label company and wants to use promotional material and performance rights from previous works from their former company, because of their fans' nostalgia for them. They have to pay a rental fee and sign a contract with Core Contents Media to use it again. Remember, the girls didn't pay for the production of their previous works, the company did.

To be honest...it wasn't very subtle. Posting anything on a social networking site is pretty irrational; any entertainer in their right mind would, I think, know to avoid this.

It was indeed a huge "misunderstanding" for those who didn't understand what they were saying in the first place. It's very unfortunate that people continue to forget that Hwayoung was trying to recover from a foot injury.

I don't think of it as "protecting the girls" or whatever to just brush this off and pretend like nothing happened - that's just being delusional. We should really consider the very real possibility of there having been bullying (I'm using the word in a very loose context here) or just...ill feelings in general. It's not like it's wrong to bend a little under pressure. I would go on and on about people blaming Hwayoung in what I view as a completely hypocritical manner

It's even more delusional to accuse without any proof in a court of law. Disregarding T-ara's statements that no bullying occurred does not help at all.

That one gif where Jiyeon deliberately avoided Hwayoung's double hi-5 while accepting the others at the bowling place definitely doesn't look anything but an act of deliberate isolation.

Seriously? That's not proof at all, because there can be a number of things why that happened, even the most simplistic, not to mention the inexplicable, like not feeling the need to slap each other's hands together so much.

And meanwhile, KKS is now planning on debuting ANOTHER group, calling them the '2nd SeeYa'

That's news to me. Any link to one this, by any chance?

[klee95]

I've been avoiding this for a while, but I'll go ahead and just say it - I'm taking every public statement with a grain of salt. Let's face it, the chances of the T-ara members being able to come and say whatever they want to (the truth, for example) are zero to none. I'm not saying everything is a complete lie, but generally they won't be saying anything that paints themselves in a bad, non-sympathetic light. Not only would this be detrimental to their image, thus lowering the chances of them even wanting to give the whole account (and as you can see, a lot of things haven't been cleared up yet), they're under contract. Everything T-ara members do and say will be regulated.

You can call this just going off on my own tangent if you'd like, but as a law school student I like to think I can at least manage to look at things objectively enough to pick out the most plausible scenario - no idol group put together by a third party is going to get along without any problems whatsoever.

If he did restrict Hwayoung from returning, it would've most likely indicate that she would've been the source for both being a bully "and" being bullied by the other members. Think of it like a business version of a civil restraining order issued by a judge, because both parties cannot get along. Since no such conditioning was issued to Hwayoung, it made it more less likely that any bullying ever took place, to begin with.

Honestly, if you can think of this I'm sure the people working at CCM can as well. Also, note that the clause about not restricting Hwayoung from returning was only tacked on after public backlash. Lord Kwangsoo clearly intended to kick Hwayoung out and not let her return (there is little to no purpose in that, just think about it) until the public sided with Hwayoung. At that point, KKS was just trying for damage control.

I would really like a video recording with audio that captures this claim. I really do.

You need a video recording...of Lord Kwangsoo specifically stating that he does not truly care for his money-making machine T-ara. Okay, I guess we can wait for that, seeing as the previous years of overwork clearly does not demonstrate this point enough for you. The entertainment industry is a fluffy place full of unicorns and hugs.

Again, let's be clear about the facts here, Hwayoung and Hyoyoung met with Kim Kwang Soo in person. They talked while being strongly dejected from the public, but yet they forgave each other, and reconciled. Those 19 written statements by staff members is what lead to Hwayoung's contract termination. But he didn't give her any conditions that prevented her from returning to them. He even publicly announced that he'll continue to support her and accept her back. I still haven't seen any burden of proof to go along with this scapegoating angle at all, considering that it's purely based on speculation, and not the facts.

Yep, they met and had a group therapy session. Also, idol members are indeed arbitrarily kicked out because of staff complaints, even though they're meant to make money and as long as they continue doing so no business manager in their right mind would disrupt it.

I'm seeing a veritable cornucopia of support just effusing from every one of Lord Kwangsoo's orifices.

What do you define as a 'fact'? If you're going with the general 'truth' definition, I assure you official statements are rarely truthful. This isn't a crime scene, where we have some cold science to give 'facts'. What do we even really know? Everything is speculation from our perspective, but we can at least make informed deductions derived from some 'facts' - for example, the entertainment industry is not friendly.

It's even more delusional to accuse without any proof in a court of law. Disregarding T-ara's statements that no bullying occurred does not help at all.

I think you're forgetting we're a bunch of people over the Internet; moreover, we make decisions and judgments in real life all the time based on deduction. Also, you're completely missing my point - I'm hardly accusing anyone of anything, just saying we should be at least open to the possibility of negative relationships within the group and simply moving past it. Furthermore, where is this statement that everything was beautiful friendship? As I recall, those tweets were confirmed to be directed against Hwayoung.

[Emperor Ryu]

I've been avoiding this for a while, but I'll go ahead and just say it - I'm taking every public statement with a grain of salt. Let's face it, the chances of the T-ara members being able to come and say whatever they want to (the truth, for example) are zero to none. I'm not saying everything is a complete lie, but generally they won't be saying anything that paints themselves in a bad, non-sympathetic light. Not only would this be detrimental to their image, thus lowering the chances of them even wanting to give the whole account (and as you can see, a lot of things haven't been cleared up yet), they're under contract. Everything T-ara members do and say will be regulated.

You can call this just going off on my own tangent if you'd like, but as a law school student I like to think I can at least manage to look at things objectively enough to pick out the most plausible scenario - no idol group put together by a third party is going to get along without any problems whatsoever.

Granted that's a possibility for public relations and/or a sense of honor thy friends and family, not to mention company policies when it comes to the media, as Kim Kwang Soo told that reporter about not going into details about those 19 written statements. But being picky about what is truth and what's a lie, falls under that category of speculations without anything to substantiate worthy enough to be presented in a court of law. Plus it doubles as a step towards paranoia to the nth degree. Not really a good thing, especially when the truth is being spoken. If there's some rock hard "evidence" to support, without any reasonable doubt that they are indeed lying with absolute intent to deceive from certain statement(s) made by them, then it can be justifiable to proclaim them as liars. Since no such "evidence" has come forth, there's no basis to form an argument of such. None. It can be construed that this line of thinking is nothing more than a means to create unfounded conspiracies. Waste of time if there's no solid proof of "evidence" to warrant an investigation.

Here's the twist though, there's nothing to objectively correlate everything that they've done thus far, to say that they are absolutely waging a massive media war campaign against the public in order to steal our money. Plus there's a whole bunch of other things that they have done which directly contradicts what this line of thinking is proposing to begin with. How can it be entertained or even amused to formulate such scenarios, when there are elements that by default, derails it already? I've asked this many times already, especially here, . . . "Where is the proof?".

Honestly, if you can think of this I'm sure the people working at CCM can as well. Also, note that the clause about not restricting Hwayoung from returning was only tacked on after public backlash. Lord Kwangsoo clearly intended to kick Hwayoung out and not let her return (there is little to no purpose in that, just think about it) until the public sided with Hwayoung. At that point, KKS was just trying for damage control.

That backlash was already in full steam way before that reporter released that article about that interview between him and Hwayoung and Hyoyoung, since Kim Kwang Soo's announcement that they had to terminate her contract, given by the 19 written statements by staff members. There was nothing he could do about that, until he was able to communicate with the antis, and issue that meeting between the antis' representative and himself. Which I will point out, the antis caved in so pathetically for missing an official meeting that could've ended this whole "misunderstanding" right then and there. It's as if though the antis wanted to continue to bash T-ara, Core Contents Media, especially Kim Kwang Soo, like hating was their only means to live to that affect. For what? Attention? Lynch mob him instead? Makes no sense whatsoever, if all they wanted was clear proof of records to substantiate the truth into the matter, so no further mistrust can continue on about it, maybe even get Hwayoung reinstated back with T-ara. Then they should've met him in person, accompanied by an attorney, and a police officer, even a reporter if they wanted to. But no. That didn't happen at all. They backed away for their sheer hatred of the man, because they don't want to be in the same room with him. How childish.

You need a video recording...of Lord Kwangsoo specifically stating that he does not truly care for his money-making machine T-ara. Okay, I guess we can wait for that, seeing as the previous years of overwork clearly does not demonstrate this point enough for you.

T-ara is not the only idols who work very hard in the industry, especially when they themselves make it their own personal goal to be the best that they can as idols (i.e. fitness training, staying healthy, studying music, vocal practices, dance choreography, etc., etc.). How do we know that they were willing to sacrifice that much to be the best? How do we know that they themselves took this level of commitment to achieve such goals to begin with since their debut? If their results from each of their projects measured the level of success below their projected planned goals, it can be easily understood they will find whatever they can to reach it, or even surpass it, relentlessly, because they know that they can. We see their fighting spirit in their performances all the time. How can this be interpreted as being forced to work? By a joke that they probably made to humanized themselves to the public? Perhaps they themselves forced such an ambitious challenge onto their own pertinacity? So what now, the phrase, "Blood, sweat, and tears.", has no bearing in the entertainment industry? I can remember the times the girls took charity works and projects during their off hours, and telling reporters that they wanted to do that, even though they earned their much needed rest. Are we going to criticize such activities from celebrities for caring for other people?

The entertainment industry is a fluffy place full of unicorns and hugs.

By hurt T-ara and making them lose a precious member is suppose to make things better? If life's goal is to work hard to get to a place called "Heaven", it most certainly means life was not intended to go to a place called "Hell".

What do you define as a 'fact'? If you're going with the general 'truth' definition, I assure you official statements are rarely truthful.

And I'm quite sure they weren't "mostly" false, especially when there are indeed factors that can and does change schedules, perceptions, and the outcome of completed projects.

This isn't a crime scene, where we have some cold science to give 'facts'.

With all this talk about how Kim Kwang Soo mistreating his employees and all of these law breaking, immoral, and corrupt means he's doing, especially with that whole Open World Entertainment case, how can one not think this as criminal?

Science? As in what, behavior studies and psychological profiling that lacks the patients' complete medical histories, let alone the patients themselves to sit on those comfortable couches and chairs?

What do we even really know? Everything is speculation from our perspective, but we can at least make informed deductions derived from some 'facts' - for example, the entertainment industry is not friendly.

But we're treating such extreme negative speculations as if it were the truth when no evidence that proves that they are being mistreated, forced and threatened to work by the company that is breaking labor laws, and filling the media and public with deceptions. And let's be clear on this, "some facts" does not mean "all of the facts". And here's another fun fact, "the entertainment industry is friendly too", otherwise it won't garner so many employees, just by looking at the rolling credits. Again, it doesn't help to focus on one thing to make it as if it was the whole issue, when in "fact" it is not.

I think you're forgetting we're a bunch of people over the Internet; moreover, we make decisions and judgments in real life all the time based on deduction. Also, you're completely missing my point - I'm hardly accusing anyone of anything, just saying we should be at least open to the possibility of negative relationships within the group and simply moving past it.

Even more so, since we're on the internet and not employees of Core Contents Media who witnessed the events that unfolded into this huge "misunderstanding" step by step. How can it be plausible, even considerable to think that there was bullying amongst them when they themselves explained that it was a disagreement, in the first place? Makes no sense whatsoever. And again, there's nothing in, . . .

It's even more delusional to accuse without any proof in a court of law. Disregarding T-ara's statements that no bullying occurred does not help at all.

, . . . that says I'm accusing you of such, just pointing out that there are much more severe circumstances when taking that path of thinking. Also, this is not an attempt to say that there wasn't any conflicts between the members. Obviously, they have some means to resolve such dilemmas, and as Soyeon pointed out, they sought out help from their management when they weren't able to handle the situation by themselves.

Furthermore, where is this statement that everything was beautiful friendship? As I recall, those tweets were confirmed to be directed against Hwayoung.

At the Hong Kong Press Conference recently, when Soyeon described their relationship with Hwayoung currently as "sisters", even though they are apart from each other right now.

[aoikage]

At the Hong Kong Press Conference recently, when Soyeon described their relationship with Hwayoung currently as "sisters", even though they are apart from each other right now.

I so want to see this video!

Any link?

I've always wanted to hear from T-ara themselves (or at least Sso as the leader) that they still consider Hwayoung, as anything. They were once family after all.

I was expecting to hear such statement on T-ara Confession, but no luck. That HK press conf would suffice my heart damage.

[Emperor Ryu]

I so want to see this video!

Any link?

I've always wanted to hear from T-ara themselves (or at least Sso as the leader) that they still consider Hwayoung, as anything. They were once family after all.

I was expecting to hear such statement on T-ara Confession, but no luck. That HK press conf would suffice my heart damage.

I believe

is the one. I first heard about this on several online media articles.

I'm still patiently waiting for translations for T-ara's Confession.

Yeah, I still believe she'll return to T-ara soon.