[POLL] Bullying - True or Not?

[ljk67]

Alright, I noticed that there wasn't really a thread addressing this. There are some sort of skirting the issue, but whatever:

Do you think it's true Hwayoung was bullied?

By the way, please post your thoughts. I'm especially curious as to why people think bullying did not occur, as I myself believe it did.

Sorry if this topic actually already exists or is not allowed.

[Aigis~]

I don't exactly know what to think, obviously a part of me genuinly hope it's not true. even though we don't have legit proof for everything, i just feel that some members are clever enough to know that they shouldn't do that, and following them that long I just feel they wouldn't do that. i mean i hope it isn't bullying, like the girls could just have disagreements, that has gotten blown out of proportion. I don't really know, i'm confused. I just wish the best for both T-ara and Hwayoung, because I think all of us just want the truth and stop things getting blown out of proportion. But unfortunately as always we probably won't get the truth. I will support both T-ara and Hwayoung all the way.

I have faith in them! Fighting!

[klee95]

I actually made a post about this earlier, so here it is:

Objectively speaking, I really do think there was bullying going on - I can't say for sure if there was anything physical going on (and I would very much like to think there was none), but bullying doesn't have to be physical. Being ostracized for a long time, feeling alone and unwanted...I personally think that feeling's even worse. Being an outcast for two years is torturous, even if it was just being ignored, and this alone is enough to merit any complaining on Hwayoung's part.

I'm not going by those stupid gifs and whatnot, like Boram and the umbrella (like wtf is that). But if you seriously just LOOK at all the tweets and look at outside opinions, it becomes fairly obvious something was going on behind the scenes.

First of all, people are arguing that they seem friendly on variety shows. Well, guess what - it's a variety show. Under no circumstance would T-ara actually show that they're bullying Hwa, unless they really have less brains than a rock. The sheer fact that we can observe 6Ara being less than comfortable/flat out awkward with Hwayoung tells A LOT. If that's the way they are while acting, you can imagine when the camera's not going.

And if you look at the tweets. Okay, you can argue that Hwayoung was over-exaggerating, that she's being a drama queen. But guess what, it wasn't just her. Hyoyoung tweeted in support of her, rap instructors tweeted in support of her, a SBS PD tweeted in support of her. These people obviously know more about the situation than we do, and they're all rooting for Hwayoung.

On the other hand, we have Lord KKS telling us there was no bullying going on. Pardon me for assuming this, but none of you liked him before this. I was part of the rather large group saying he was a liar and a creep, and there was maybe one or two people who said otherwise. So why are you all suddenly believing him? It's absolute delusion and hypocrisy to start going with what the man is saying just because he's protecting your precious idols.

I mean, does he even make any sense? Why would CCM staff members complain about Hwayoung, when everybody else has nothing but praise? And for that matter, why would they complain about Hwayoung specifically when there're six other girls who I refuse to believe simply has so much better manners. I am a Jiyeon-stan, and even I will admit she has some attitude issues sometimes.

Furthermore, KKS changes his story so often he has little to no credibility. First, their accounts were hacked - then he started explaining it. Now, it's actually all Hwayoung's fault, and he begins mudslinging like an elementary student; what he's saying isn't logical. Hwayoung wasn't popular enough to start acting like a diva without immediately getting kicked out. Also of note is the famous 'throwing crutches' business. Try throwing crutches when you can't stand without them, it doesn't work.

That being said, I think the 'bullying' is true, though I wish it weren't. Still, I'm going to support T-ara and Hwayoung, and I hope others can do the same.

[Grimlock]

People can say and imply negative things and actually mean it or not. Doesn't matter if the person didn't intend harm. But it's how the person receives it. If the person gets offended, regardless of intent or not...that's bullying. So yes, we're still unclear what intentions the girls had but all that matters it resulted in Hwayoung being upset. This is how cliques of females act...only this time the clique is a popular Kpop group.

[klee95]

People can say and imply negative things and actually mean it or not. Doesn't matter if the person didn't intend harm. But it's how the person receives it. If the person gets offended, regardless of intent or not...that's bullying.

I agree completely; a lot of people are of the belief that bullying can only be physical, like the rest of the members actually hitting Hwayoung - but saying negative things is just the same.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you think T-ara might not have realized they were giving Hwayoung so much stress? That seems to make sense, and I'd obviously like to think the best of them; but over a span of two years, they didn't realize it?

[Grimlock]

I agree completely; a lot of people are of the belief that bullying can only be physical, like the rest of the members actually hitting Hwayoung - but saying negative things is just the same.

But I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you think T-ara might not have realized they were giving Hwayoung so much stress? That seems to make sense, and I'd obviously like to think the best of them; but over a span of two years, they didn't realize it?

In a group setting, people can be a little relentless. We don't actually mean it...we're in company of people we like. But we don't want things to be all rainbows and unicorns, you know? And no they might not have realized it. Until someone pulls me aside and says "look...what you said really bothered me" I'll assume it was brushed off. But I don't make it a habit to bust anyone's balls either.

People have to realize THIS is how girls bully, behind backs and with indirect/passive/sarcastic jabs. Simply put they're catty. The vibe with passive insults is that the person feels he/she is higher than the victim to be insulting them directly. Unconsciously they want to avoid direct confrontation and have a safety net of "oh you're taking it the wrong way". Up to you to apply this mindset to the Twitter debacle, but this is just a general concept.

[iAmEd]

As much as I wish this wasn't to be true, I think it is... And it's such a shame really, but I guess when the cameras start rolling a girl can really change.

Why oh why did KKS exclaim that some of the girl's accounts were hacked? I mean come on... really? It just added fuel to the fire. For shame, for shame.

[klee95]

In a group setting, people can be a little relentless. We don't actually mean it...we're in company of people we like. But we don't want things to be all rainbows and unicorns, you know? And no they might not have realized it. Until someone pulls me aside and says "look...what you said really bothered me" I'll assume it was brushed off. But I don't make it a habit to bust anyone's balls either.

People have to realize THIS is how girls bully, behind backs and with indirect/passive/sarcastic jabs. Simply put they're catty. The vibe with passive insults is that the person feels he/she is higher than the victim to be insulting them directly. Unconsciously they want to avoid direct confrontation and have a safety net of "oh you're taking it the wrong way". Up to you to apply this mindset to the Twitter debacle, but this is just a general concept.

Aha, I know what you mean - when you're with a bunch of friends, your behavior tends to become a little more...relaxed? That really does make a lot of sense, but I still wonder if Hwayoung didn't make it obvious she didn't like the way she was being treated. I mean, two years is a long time to endure something quietly, I'm positive she would have snapped back at some point. I suppose you might not realize if you see a person, say something, and then brush it off after you part ways - but for someone you see nearly all the time? I think Hwa couldn't have been silent.

But yes, that is how I imagine the 'bullying' occurred - I will never believe that, say, BORAM laid a hand on HWAYOUNG. On the other hand, I'm not sure if that's me having a shred of optimism again, so idk.

Thank you for this post again, it's very thought provoking.

[golan]

I don't believe in any kind of bullying without a solid evidence.

It so easy to accuse someone of bullying repeating only the rumors and fabrications of the rest of the people. And I'm very sad to find this attitude here in Diadem. After this problem explode I felt that this place where T-ara fans reunite will be the exception. But it's not.

Anytime someone take Hwayoung as a victim of bullying he/she is harming Hyomin, Eungjung, Jiyeon, Soyeon, Boram and Qri. The pain these girls are suffering right now is very hard to imagine.

Unitl now I believe that Hwayoung didn't want to make damage to T-ara, but she did it. And a really big one. So big that I'm scare about the survival of the group.

[klee95]

There's pretty solid evidence already in favor of there being bullying - but there's far less for otherwise, although I would very much welcome if you could convince me that there was not. I honestly wish there wasn't any bullying going on. I was not basing my conclusion based on rumors and stupid gifs, but actual posts from people who know what they're talking about - unless you think Hwayoung, Hyoyoung, and all the instructors/PDs/people in the know are coming together to make one giant lie.

I'm sorry if you think that people who can accept there was bullying going on isn't uniting; but I think it's best if we can come to terms with it. Simply denying it isn't going to help anyone either, and if anything it's just saying that bullying is okay because us fans will support you anyways. T-ara isn't perfect, and they can still grow as people.

As for the group's survival...yes, that's something I'm worried about too. I'm not quite sure how they can get bounce back from this one. It seems like the only thing left is to just come out and apologize, but I doubt KKS will allow it.

[Grimlock]

So let's use a similar and common example. A woman trying to report a rape. People are reluctant to believe it. The woman is far more reluctant to report it out of shame, embarassment and repercussions. It's such a huge issue that we forget the most important part, the crime itself. It doesn't matter the intent of the group, the part that matters is that Hwayoung was offended and pretty much fed up with the BS. That part was plenty evidence.

I just hope no one does anything drastic. Careers can be salvaged but lives can not.

[maknae23]

I'm especially curious too as to why people think that the bullying DID OCCUR. I don't know but even some of the longer fans seem to think that the bullying took place. I might be delusional and blind but please do enlighten me more on why did you think that there's bullying. Okay klee and grimlock who are longer fans than me just posted above me.

So I'm going to comment based on my perspective. Urgh it feels so hard to disagree with one of my favourite writers in this forum. First of all, sorry klee if I'll offend you with my post. I think I'm going to repeat myself again. You mentioned about looking at the 5 members of T-ara's tweets and also the tweets by Hwayoung, Hyoyoung, the coach and also the PDs. To be honest, when I looked at the tweets by T-ara, I seriously don't see any harm at all. Maybe they were pissed but did you consider all the stress that they had been through when Hwayoung was injured? I know it's not Hwayoung's fault to get injured but idols are human as well. You practised so freaking hard for a concert and then suddenly someone got injured, wouldn't you be stressed out that you need to practise all the formations again and also remember her parts? In Eunjung and Jiyeon's case, won't you ever think that if you are them, you'll go "Hey, I was injured, I forced myself to perform even if I was in pain and why is Hwayoung given a special treatment"? I know it's their responsibility to be understanding towards their group members but when you are tired, when you are stress and then something unfortunate happens, won't you be angry although you know that the injury is not Hwayoung's fault.

But irregardless of all these, all of them are at fault. (okay, I'm starting to judge them now) Hyomin shouldn't have tweeted and all of them (except Qri) shouldn't have replied her and Hwayoung and Hyoyoung shouldn't have bothered or got offended by the tweets cause again if you LOOK back at those tweets, they were either meant as a reminder, an advice or an encouragement (at least for me). Hwayoung by no means (or maybe she couldn't stand it anymore) got offended and started all the drama. I'm not trying to put all the blame on Hwayoung cause I don't deny the fact that she MIGHT be the victim. After the bullying rumours started, everybody started to shut up and stopped tweeting, Tom and Jerry deleted their tweets (suspicious huh?) while Hwayoung continued to make the drama worse. Was she planning to ruin T-ara at the first place since she knew that her time will soon be over? Judge it yourself.

Well, coming back to the issue of bullying again, of course bullying includes isolating and ignoring someone but I'm going to repeat myself again. Klee mentioned about "the sheer fact that we can observe 6Ara being less than comfortable/flat out awkward with Hwayoung tells A LOT." Isn't this perfectly normal? They are 6 friends who have been together all the time since debut. they faced all the stupid scandals together, they stayed together and performed together and they thought 6 was PERFECT but then one day POOF someone came in their group. They must be wondering why must they have an "extra" person when they are already a perfect combination and I believe that most of you previously thought that Hwayoung was a useless addition. If you thought that Hwayoung was a useless addition, how would you think the members themselves will feel? Of course, there will be a bit of jealousy, confusion and anger. And worst of all, you need to divide the hard-earned money that you have with another new member (especially EunJiMin). Then they try to "accept" her in the group but maybe they just can't click with her for some reasons thus resulting in the so call "isolating and ignoring" issue.

I am Ji stan and I do admit that she looks b!tchy at times and seem to have some attitude problems. But I don't blame her actually. Call me bias and delusional but I know in a group of girls, there will be cat fights, hair pulling and some b!tching going around. Trust me I am girl. What I want to say is I don't deny the fact that bullying MIGHT have taken place but for me, I still believe in them and if the bullying did take place, all of them did it for some reason that cannot be avoided. Again, call me delusional, bias, blind, ignorant whatsoever, I will never ever believe especially Soyeon will do such thing unless she admits it herself.

And one more thing. I don't believe in whatever nonsense that came out from KKS's mouth. I don't believe in that bullying case and neither do I believe that Hwayoung has princess-like attitude. This huge mess was just a misunderstanding by both parties and it was made worst by KKS whom I think has the intention of punishing them by breaking T-ara apart. I hope all of them will have the strong will to go against KKS and spill out the truth behind all these nonsense. I'll accept the truth even though it hurts. I just want the truth that's all.

PEACE.

[munchausen]

bullying occured everywhere, and i think we should focus on things that happen rather than adding more wild speculation. Bullying issue did not started Hwayoung's case.

[shlver]

Whether you want to face the facts or not, these girls are constantly in the limelight, and their heads DO get bigheaded. To think that there was no bullying in a group as large as that is not only naive but erring on the side of idiocy. GIRLS ARE BITCHES. I am a girl, and if you are a girl; you should know this. There is no question in my mind bullying occurred.

[klee95]

@maknae -

Please don't worry about offending me haha, I'm perfectly okay with opposing views. I might want to be convinced deep down .___.

Actually, my Korean friends and I didn't think there was anything bullying about those tweets when we first read it, I was even trying to tell people this whole thing would blow over the first day. Only later did I connect it back, so I'll concede that point; I'm still not certain about those to be honest.

And I understand what you mean about them being stressed then, but I sincerely believe the bullying was something that occured over a long time - probably beginning when Hwayoung first joined T-ara. As even you say, it's very likely just based on the circumstances. Grimlock's actually been quite convincing that maybe T-ara didn't even realize they were stressing Hwayoung out by ignoring her/making some snide comments or whatever, but you have to admit it is HIGHLY likely that it happened.

Again, yes, maybe Hwa's tweet was a little irresponsible - but at the same time, if she was feeling bullied, I can understand why she'd lash out. I don't think it was anything premeditated, like she was scheming to ruin T-ara. Much more likely, she simply had a moment of anger and acted instinctively.

Yeah, it's normal that T-ara wouldn't be quite comfortable with Hwa at first. BUT, for two years? Even if I can accept that they never quite managed to accept her, it's not acceptable, to me, that they managed to isolate her enough to provoke this. If, for instance, they didn't accept her, they could still at least manage to be friendly. I know I deal with a lot of people I don't like at times, but I still manage to be amicable. If the rest of T-ara had managed at least that, I highly doubt Hwayoung would have been so unhappy.

I completely agree with your last two paragraphs.

Thank you for that post too, I liked hearing an opposite viewpoint. Most people who are voting "no" aren't responding, lol.

[hwayoungislove]

1. CCM Management already release a statement before saying that the agency+members are the one who opposes Hwayoung decision to go on stage.

2. It's getting harder and harder to believe in statements releases by CCM rep. as they already lied to us fans before by saying that the girls account were hacked.

3. The girls started tweeting AFTER the Budokan concert which is on 25&26. The music bank recording is on 27.

4. On July 28th, CCM already DECIDED that they will make a major announcement regarding T-ARA on 30th, at 1 p.m. KST. LOGICALLY and PROFESSIONALLY thinking, they should have reached a verdict by that time on what to do with Hwayoung contract because contract termination is not something that can be decided or resolve in a day or two as lawyer, representatives and agents from both party must present.

5. These matters, LOGICALLY speaking, will not resolves UNLESS the involved party themselves (the members) and not their representative (CCM Agency) come forward and make an official statement. IF CCM Agency didn;t allow them to make the statement themselves, that is not unfair to the girls as this issue is regarding to their future and lengthening these problems will only dragging the girls down along.

#SupportHwayoung

[Grimlock]

maknae23 - You bring up great points. At a glance the tweets did seem harmless and in a way motivating. The consecutive tweets made the whole "last fight" attitude and all was fine and dandy until Hwayoung's rolled around. Which raised eyebrows. The tweets themselves weren't direct bullying. But it showed a difference in attitude between Hwayoung and the rest. An attitude where she was upset. I've said a few times that this situation had plenty of opportunities to have the group come out strong and without issue but that hasn't been the case. Each move they made only made it worse. At this point...the nail is in the coffin. The least damaging way is if KKS comes clean and admits the manipulation and that T-ara was under pressure, and that Hwayoung's frustation is not towards the other members but the management. This results in the group all being brought together in a good light and the blame falls on someone already disliked in the Kpop industry. However this is KKS we're talking about, at best we may get an apology from the members for upsetting and disappointing fans. KKS would never let them admit that they bullied a member.

We all have biases for a reason. If I had to crown a member as my bias, it would be Eunjung. Not only because of her talents but because of her attitude. I always saw her as having a clear, innocent conscience, almost like a child, yet being authoritative and diplomatic. So it's heartbreaking to see someone I've held up to this regard as being involved in the position she is in right now. I won't say who but I could see how some of the members had a bit of cattiness in them, I'd never expect them to use it let alone on a fellow member.

[hwayoungislove]

I'm not entirely agree on the 'encouraging tweet' part.

like they girls (or at least Hyomin) tweet, everything must happened for a reason. so, Hwayoung and Hyoyoung replies ALSO must happened for a reason.

plus, Korean fans already said a lot about the tweets. in English, those tweets really seems harmless. but in Korean, and if a Korean native read it, it has a warning and sarcastic tone, especially with the "I applaud the acting genius" part.

so, let just hope that the GIRLS, and not their representative, will come forward and clear things up. if not, then there will be a lot of things left unspoken, and that is bad.

[Scatter_88mil]

@maknae -

Actually, my Korean friends and I didn't think there was anything bullying about those tweets when we first read it, I was even trying to tell people this whole thing would blow over the first day. Only later did I connect it back, so I'll concede that point; I'm still not certain about those to be honest.

And I understand what you mean about them being stressed then, but I sincerely believe the bullying was something that occured over a long time - probably beginning when Hwayoung first joined T-ara. As even you say, it's very likely just based on the circumstances. Grimlock's actually been quite convincing that maybe T-ara didn't even realize they were stressing Hwayoung out by ignoring her/making some snide comments or whatever, but you have to admit it is HIGHLY likely that it happened.

Again, yes, maybe Hwa's tweet was a little irresponsible - but at the same time, if she was feeling bullied, I can understand why she'd lash out. I don't think it was anything premeditated, like she was scheming to ruin T-ara. Much more likely, she simply had a moment of anger and acted instinctively.

Yeah, it's normal that T-ara wouldn't be quite comfortable with Hwa at first. BUT, for two years? Even if I can accept that they never quite managed to accept her, it's not acceptable, to me, that they managed to isolate her enough to provoke this. If, for instance, they didn't accept her, they could still at least manage to be friendly. I know I deal with a lot of people I don't like at times, but I still manage to be amicable. If the rest of T-ara had managed at least that, I highly doubt Hwayoung would have been so unhappy.

I completely agree with your last two paragraphs.

Thank you for that post too, I liked hearing an opposite viewpoint. Most people who are voting "no" aren't responding, lol.

Lol klee, you're on fire today. Never seen you participate this much in discussions till today haha.

But anyways, I couldn't agree any more with this. Although on your last paragraph, I can relate perfectly fine and even emphasize with the 6-ara members as well as Hwayoung's.

Having lived at Korea from 07 to 09, I myself had been ostracized like Hwayoung had been back when I was at school there. In the deep root, it's a culture thing, at least for me. Iived overseas for most of my life and attending a school in Korea was definitely a whole new experience - when I first started out, the whole class went all dazzling that I lived overseas and all but once settling down, things got pretty daunting fast because I was 'different' to them (won't go into detail on that). That's when talents really come into play - aced English completely, came in near top place for art classes, considered the best doodler of the class and helped out others with their Eng. homework and the such. Result? Got accepted by everyone and enjoyed school to the fullest until 09 (HS freshman year).

On Hwayoung's case however....the dark reality is that she never had anything to offer in the first place, talent-wise. Rapping was already taken by Eunjung and Hyomin at the time, singing was definitely Soyeon's while Jiyeon got the visual and acting. Boram and Qri, I wouldn't know but they are after all part of the original lineup so they probably got the free slip. And she continued to never really offer much to the group as time flew (which also further reinforces the strong possibility that management played a huge role in her sudden extension of lines from LD and beyond - and which would piss off the original members even more). Add in the amount of stress they get from their schedules, it just makes the ticking time bomb count down faster.

Basically, nothing to offer, then you're done for.

It's an ugly thing, but that's just how it is (and it's even worse in the military). Collective mindset, basically.

Not saying I condone it, but 6-ara and Hwayoung's position are easy to relate to, at least for me.

[ChickenJiyeon]

Personally from what i think . One things for sure there's some bullying inside but it may not be physically , but look what are the odds of having one person bully the rest of the members . I'd never think something like this would happen .. But still supporting T-ara because of this bully incident ?

[Grimlock]

I'm not entirely agree on the 'encouraging tweet' part.

like they girls (or at least Hyomin) tweet, everything must happened for a reason. so, Hwayoung and Hyoyoung replies ALSO must happened for a reason.

plus, Korean fans already said a lot about the tweets. in English, those tweets really seems harmless. but in Korean, and if a Korean native read it, it has a warning and sarcastic tone, especially with the "I applaud the acting genius" part.

so, let just hope that the GIRLS, and not their representative, will come forward and clear things up. if not, then there will be a lot of things left unspoken, and that is bad.

The author's tone is always lost in text and is inferred by the reader. Couple that with the translation barrier.

[klee95]

@Scatter -

LOL, yeah I usually don't participate as much, I keep my opinion to myself But this is pretty, uh, compelling.

I admit I don't quite understand why Hwa was added in the first place, so I can understand where you're coming from. But still, as you say, I can't fully accept it as an explanation, not for such a long time. I guess I'm just one of /those/ people who try to act friendly (yep, act...I'm kinda fake I suppose xD), but it seems like common etiquette to me to at least try and make the best of a situation. Not saying it's something every one can do, though.

Also I'd like to defend Hwayoung by saying I think she's the best rapper in T-ara, and that she's definitely proved herself with time.

[Grimlock]

Here's an example of group banter where if Nana freaked out, the members would've been in equally hot water. Again, it's not the intent of the people but how the victim/recipient takes it.

- The group as a whole single her out.

- Uee looks at her with a shocked expression.

- Kahi steals her mic saying "no more"

- Jungah claps when Kahi does.

The key thing here is Nana didn't take offense. Banter, yes. Bullying, no.

[Taiki]

No one will really know unless any of them or Hwayoung herself speaks up .

[klee95]

First - NANA! a;dsfja;ldfj

Ahem. I agree with Grimlock (again). Of course, one might argue that just as Nana appeared to be okay with the teasing, Hwayoung didn't take offense either; but that's only because Hwayoung was acting that way. Again, it's a variety show - and it's unlikely for anyone to make their real feelings known. Would Hwa really have exploded in the middle of a show and gotten herself kicked out? Probably not.

However, judging by her reaction now, it seems like she just couldn't take it anymore. I am still of the belief that maybe the T-ara members might have intended for Hwa to feel bad through their actions (but not to the extent some antis would paint, they're not sadistic monsters), but either way it doesn't matter. Hwayoung was bullied because she suffered during her time in the group.